Log for Chat_20090824
Participants: Marc Bernd Håvard Mike Erkki ewv Gaïd
2:01:19 ‹Håvard› Hi? 12:01:48 ‹Mike› Hi 12:02:08 ‹Marc› Hi! 12:02:25 ‹Bernd› Hallo! 12:02:40 ‹Marc› It's 14:00, so let's get going 12:02:54 ‹Marc› You can find the agenda with links to relevant documents at http://wiki.cdfg.org/Chat_20090824 12:02:59 * Erkki joins cdfg 12:03:29 ‹Marc› Glad to see you back to the first CDFG chat after quite a while! 12:04:30 * Håvard quit (timeout) 12:04:35 * Håvard joins cdfg 12:04:51 ‹Marc› As far as I recall, Eveline and Gaid still wanted to join 12:05:08 ‹Bernd› Just to announce, I will participate in the first two agenda points and then drop out. 12:05:22 ‹Marc› but since our agenda is rather packed, let's start 12:05:31 ‹Marc› @Bernd: OK, no problem 12:05:34 ‹Håvard› There is something "strange" with my screen window. I may need to restart. 12:05:48 * ewv joins cdfg 12:06:29 ‹Marc› On point 1 we have our possible involvement in the Commission's new business platform promoting multilingualism 12:06:37 ‹ewv› hello 12:07:06 ‹Marc› which falls into two big chunks, the general ICT standardization whitepaper and the business platform in particular 12:07:55 ‹Marc› About the general ICT standardization whitepaper and the related survey, I wonder a bit if there are specific CDFG topics 12:08:07 * Gaïd joins cdfg 12:08:17 ‹Marc› but Bernd would you like to take the lead on this? 12:08:40 ‹Mike› That was my thought - I think that this is a much higher CEN level issue 12:09:01 ‹Bernd› I am checking my notes… there were two CDFG-related questions I think 12:09:12 ‹Gaïd› Good afternoon all ! must quit at 14.30 for a meeting 12:09:39 ‹Marc› Hello Gaïd and Eveline! 12:09:59 ‹Marc› @Gaïd: OK 12:10:20 ‹Bernd› questions (a), (b), and (h) 12:11:05 ‹Marc› (a) Do you agree that the attributes for standards to be associated with EU legislation and policies should be integrated in the future ICT standardisation policy as set out in section 2.1 of the White Paper? 12:11:14 ‹Marc› (b) Do you agree that the public procurement provisions of CD 87/95 should be updated so that public authorities can more easily acquire ICT services, applications and products that fulfil their specific requirements and in particular an adequate level of interoperability? 12:11:36 ‹Marc› (h) Do you agree with enabling the referencing of specific fora and consortia standards in relevant EU legislation and policies subject to a positive evaluation of the standard and the forum or consortium processes with regard to the attributes list as described in chapter 2.1 of the White Paper? 12:11:43 ‹Marc› (for ease of reference) 12:11:45 ‹Bernd› In my understanding, "standards to be associated with EU legislation and policies" could pave the way for better integration of ISO 10646 12:12:38 ‹Marc› agreed 12:13:09 ‹Bernd› This should lead to stronger support for multialphabetism-compatible standards in legislation and policies, to public administrations purchasing multialphabetism-compatible software applications, and to referencing to fora and consortia standards (W3C, Unicode) that are usually multialphabetism-compatible. 12:13:51 ‹Marc› Agreed, but should we as CDFG take a stance on this? I suppose that CEN/ISSS itself will work on this 12:14:12 ‹Bernd› At the moment there is a kind of technology gap – the EU level uses 10646, but Member States still fiddle with legacy applications. 12:14:50 ‹Bernd› If CEN/ISSS responds to the survey, this is fine for me. 12:15:34 ‹Mike› But perhaps CEN/ISSS needs the correct words to respond - perhaps the experts in CDFG can help formulate a good response? 12:15:53 ‹Bernd› Good idea. 12:15:59 ‹Gaïd› It would be a good idea to prepare a proposal 12:17:16 ‹Marc› that would probably be as part of the general remarks, because the rest are only yes / no questions 12:17:16 ‹Bernd› Well, actually this would concern the field "General remarks". For the yes-no-questions, CDFG could prepare voting recommendations. 12:18:23 ‹Marc› 12:19:08 ‹Bernd› So will a text be prepared online or offline (and circulated)? 12:19:12 ‹Marc› I strongly suspect CEN/ISSS will vote yes on a, b and h --- Gaïd, do you know something about it? 12:21:52 ‹Marc› I can prepare a paragraph and circulate it on the CDFG list 12:22:27 ‹Gaïd› i have just enquired with Luc Van Den Berghe what has been done concerning the white paper. John Ketchel prepated a draft answer thathe circulates to our members. He received feed-back on it and is now prducing a revision for the JPG and a consolidated version with ETSI will be put together. I will be able to circulat this doc to you by e-ma 12:22:46 ‹Marc› great 12:22:48 ‹Marc› on an administrative note: since Erkki and Håvard have problems with the chat, could we switch to the "test" chat? 12:23:27 ‹Mike› OK 12:23:35 ‹Gaïd› yes 12:23:36 ‹Marc› just click "test" on the tab above 12:23:37 ‹Bernd› OK 12:32:46 ‹Bernd› …and it might also give some impulse to better association of standards with EU policies, as hinted by the whitepaper. 12:33:52 ‹Marc› should we then join the platform as CDFG? 12:34:03 ‹Mike› In ETSI we looked at tying the learning oriented "Europass Language Passport" to the individual language preferences necessary to support "how you will communicate electronically or create online content in all those languages" 12:34:53 ‹Marc› that would sound like an excellent team 12:34:57 ‹Mike› We just suggested such an approach but never developed it - perhaps there is scope to do so within the platform 12:35:17 ‹Bernd› as the platform is on Multilingualism (and ICT support for it), CDFG looks appropriate to me. 12:35:46 ‹Mike› I certainly think CDFG is the obvious choice 12:36:31 ‹Marc› could we have two organizations joining for this field? 12:37:46 ‹Bernd› of course 12:38:39 ‹Marc› so, let's check the process of joining. Who would act as a contact person? 12:38:46 ‹Mike› Much as I ought to be supportive of an ETSI perspective - I am not totally confident that ETSI has a stable number of sufficient experts to participate in its own right (this is just an opinion) 12:39:05 ‹Bernd› The platform shall be open to sectoral branch organisations for companies and other commercial entities, Chambers of Commerce, trade promotion organisations, members of Enterprise Europe Network and similar associations, organisations representing the social partners, various non-governmental organisations and interest groups and organisations representing institutions for higher education, vocati 12:39:27 ‹Marc› with me working in the Commission, it might not be the best idea to have me in that role 12:39:40 ‹Bernd› tional training or research. Organisations with a trans-national or European-wide dimension, regrouping entities in several countries and with an active interest in the promotion of multilingualism for competitiveness and employability are welcome to apply as full members. Ideally, they will also fulfil one or several of the following criteria (…) 12:39:44 ‹Mike› WhOne possibility is to take some of the outline ideas from the ETSI work and see if they could be worked on within CEN 12:40:44 ‹Marc› OK 12:41:32 ‹Bernd› or even within the forum – there is one Italian language organisation that showed interest in the technical background. 12:43:28 ‹Marc› which one would that be? 12:44:01 ‹Bernd› The name is Democazia linguistica. 12:44:08 ‹Bernd› Democrazia 12:44:52 ‹Marc› OK. Anybody against the CDFG's joining that platform? 12:45:16 ‹Mike› No - I strongly support it 12:45:52 ‹Marc› Erkki just said he also supports this 12:45:59 ‹Marc› Bernd: would you then be able to act as contact person? 12:46:10 ‹Marc› on CDFG's behalf? 12:47:04 ‹Bernd› I will be pleased to do it; however, I have just observer status in CDFG. Does that matter? 12:47:29 ‹Marc› I wouldn't think so 12:47:42 ‹Marc› and great that you're prepared to do this 12:47:52 ‹Bernd› You' 12:47:56 ‹Bernd› re welcome 12:48:26 ‹Marc› Mike, could you act as a backup if needed? 12:50:09 ‹Mike› I feel that my limited expertise in the field makes me a less than perfect representative for the CDFG - I am not sure what I might need to do as contact person? 12:51:02 ‹Bernd› There will be two meetings of the forum in Brussels per year. 12:51:35 ‹Marc› in which the position of backup would only come into play when Bernd is unavailable 12:52:33 ‹Mike› OK - I am willing as long as I am well briefed and supported and if no other more qualified person wishes to take that role 12:53:20 ‹Bernd› As I am now based in Brussels, I should in general be available. Just it would be nice to have a backup in case of illness etc. 12:53:35 ‹Marc› @Mike: thank you 12:53:44 ‹Marc› @Bernd: that's perfect 12:53:49 ‹Bernd› Yes, thank you! 12:53:53 ‹Mike› OK - no problem 12:54:05 ‹Marc› that should conclude this issue. I'll start the formalities ASAP and let you know 12:54:10 ‹Marc› anything else? 12:54:44 ‹Bernd› on the platform not. 12:55:31 ‹Mike› No 12:55:41 ‹Marc› OK, then to the name writing in public register 12:57:02 ‹Erkki› Miracles do happen, I can now participate. 12:57:20 ‹Marc› 12:57:52 ‹Marc› I discussed this issue with DIN which, as you all know, holds the TC304 secretariat 12:57:59 ‹Erkki› The name writing is not in the CEN proposal for 2009. 12:58:26 ‹Marc› unfortunately, Mr. Wischhöfer has only today returned from his holidays, so no definitive response as of yet 12:58:41 ‹Marc› @Erkki: unfortunately not 12:59:55 ‹Erkki› Consequently, I do hope that Germany can resolve the issue of funding the secretariat internally, since the German government is supposedly interested in the outcome. 12:59:56 ‹Marc› The next round of applications will most likely only be in a year's time from now 13:00:35 ‹Marc› however, some form of funding will be required for DIN 13:01:25 ‹Erkki› If another year is wasted, the problems will only get worse (and all kinds of interim solution may pop up). 13:01:53 ‹Marc› that's unfortunately very true 13:03:17 ‹Erkki› Marc, could you check the current thinking in Germany. 13:03:40 ‹Marc› I will definitely do that and keep you updated 13:04:30 ‹Erkki› I proposed to Marc on the phone that we could have another chat two weeks from now to discuss this and other subjects. 13:05:05 ‹Erkki› Incidentally, who will be in the MEEK open meeting? 13:05:07 ‹Bernd› I have to check at home for the last e-mail that I got from the German government. They said they will change over their base set of rules for e-government data from ISO 8859-1 to ISO 10646 13:05:40 ‹Bernd› …but they want to use a European subset and there is no common definition yet. 13:05:40 ‹Marc› that would, indeed, be interesting to know 13:05:52 ‹Marc› @Meek: I'll try to be there, but cannot yet promise anything 13:06:14 ‹Erkki› @Bernd, the encoding is not the full solution, however.. 13:06:15 ‹Mike› I will be at the Meek meeting 13:07:17 ‹Bernd› @Erkki: Yes, the problem will be to define a subset because e.g. all fonts will need to support it. 13:07:57 ‹Marc› Indeed. The output will have to be a "eGov-MES" in the form of a full standard 13:08:06 ‹Marc› a subset of MES-3 or even of MES-2 13:08:06 ‹Erkki› If the German government wants this, the funding for DIN (and possibly even for the project team) is peanuts. 13:09:08 ‹Erkki› ...so let's try to get moving on this one. 13:09:35 ‹Marc› yes 13:09:36 ‹Marc› @Next chat: we could plan a chat on September 7th, 16:30 to 18:00 13:09:53 ‹Mike› re Meek - has anyone made travel / accomodation arrangements yet - I am just about to do so 13:10:25 ‹Bernd› September 7th is fine for me. 13:11:21 ‹Mike› I will be working at ETSI that week but should be able to break away for the chat - although my presence is clearly not vital on this topic 13:11:39 ‹Erkki› I'll arrive already on the 1st (so that I can go to CEN on the 2nd, if needed) and will fly back on Friday. 13:11:52 ‹Marc› we could at that occasion also have a look at the status of the Wien iniative 13:12:33 ‹Marc› I'll then circulate the proposed date over the list 13:12:59 ‹Erkki› I'll stay at the Chao Chow Palace; Riitta will join me. Also Troy and Tero will be staying there. 13:14:12 ‹Erkki› I'd also want to bring up once again the European representation in the CLDR Technical Committee. 13:14:34 ‹Marc› good 13:14:38 ‹Marc› Anything else on the name writing issue? 13:15:11 ‹Håvard (on Oper› I shall have to leave now. Next time I will try to be able to participate more actively. I have been running a bit back and forth today. See you 7 Sept. 13:15:24 ‹Erkki› Before we get a better understanding of the German situation, we cannot really do anything. 13:15:39 ‹Marc› @Håvard: see you 13:15:51 * Håvard quit (timeout) 13:16:00 ‹Marc› Then onto the EOR 13:16:47 ‹Erkki› I had some minor corrections to make: 13:16:49 ‹Marc› The goal is to prepare the final draft for CEN enquiry by this evening, providing there are no blocking issues left 13:16:57 * Håvard (on Oper quit (timeout) 13:17:03 ‹Bernd› So I shall leave now too. @Marc, please put me in copy when you submit the documents for the platform. 13:17:16 ‹Marc› Will do 13:17:29 ‹Marc› You can find the current draft at http://wiki.cdfg.org/PreEN13710 13:18:02 * Bernd quit (timeout) 13:18:17 ‹Erkki› In the Foreword, there is ENV 13710:200-12 - should be 2001-12. 13:18:23 ‹Marc› Following the disposition of comments I have in cooperation with Åke Persson extended the Latin letter repertoire to cover the full IPA characters 13:19:15 ‹Marc› @Erkki: thanks for spotting this. will correct it 13:20:48 ‹Marc› You can find the list of added letters in the disposition of comments 13:20:58 ‹Marc› the principles, however, have remained unchanged 13:21:03 ‹Erkki› In the Introduction, there is "digit and refers to the value of that character in ISO/IEC 10646" - should be code position instead of value. 13:22:53 ‹Erkki› In the normative references, there is ISO/IEC 10646-1:2003-12 - should be just 10646 without the -1. 13:26:06 ‹Marc› Thanks for spotting these errors 13:27:15 ‹Marc› anything else? 13:28:15 ‹Erkki› Also, care should be taken so that e.g., the glyph for ENG is the European (Sámi) one instead of the African one. 13:28:19 ‹Marc› Åke also proposed a tailoring for Armenian relating to the ARMENIAN SMALL LIGATURE ECH YIWN 13:28:22 ‹Mike› This is all very, new, detailed and unfamiliar to me. One question - I presume that it is the headers of the ldml code pages that are used to specify variants/deltas to the scheme being used. Is this correct? 13:28:56 ‹Marc› for the LDML yes 13:29:20 ‹Mike› OK - makes sense then. 13:29:26 ‹Marc› 14651 has unfortunately no formal way of declaring on which table a tailoring depends 13:29:33 ‹Marc› this needs to be stated in plain text 13:30:13 ‹Marc› @Erkki: yes. Unfortunately, I have not been able to influence the font in the wiki, but for the official submission DIN will prepare a Word file. I'll check for the ENG 13:30:38 ‹Mike› Hm - this is surely a weakness for future systems where the tailoring may need to be dynamically changed according to the usage? 13:30:45 ‹Erkki› Incidentally, I've informed the CLDR TC of the foerthcoming standard, and also said that after its publication we should apply the delta between the base and the national delta. 13:31:05 ‹Marc› @Erkki: Great 13:31:33 ‹Marc› they should be able to integrate the LDML directly, but then its integration between the base and the national delta will need work 13:31:58 ‹Marc› if there are specific CLDR sessions I should participate in, please let me know 13:32:26 ‹Marc› @Mike: yes, indeed. Unfortunately, that is how 14651 is 13:33:23 ‹Marc› As to the ECH YIWN, the documentation he has adduced seem to be rather convincing 13:33:23 ‹Mike› Some work for someone for the future then I guess 13:34:16 ‹Erkki› I think you should on this subject, but I don't think that CEN could complete the process in time for !.8, so it would have to be for 1.9, next year. 13:35:34 ‹Marc› The voting process will, indeed, take us way beyond the schedule for 1.8 13:35:43 ‹Erkki› The current schedule for 1.8 is: 13:35:50 ‹Mike› "As to the ECH YIWN" - decode please 13:36:11 ‹Erkki› * 2009, Oct 02 - data submission starts. 13:36:44 ‹Erkki› * 2009, Nov 24 - data vetting starts. New data cannot be entered 13:37:09 ‹Erkki› * 2010, Jan 01 - data resolution starts. Only technical committee 13:37:39 ‹Marc› The Ech Yiwn is an Armenian letter that is traditionally ordered between ARMENIAN SMALL LETTER KEH and ARMENIAN SMALL LETTER OH 13:37:57 ‹Marc› the CTT treats it as a ligature, though 13:37:57 ‹Erkki› members can make changes 13:38:35 ‹Erkki› * 2010, Feb 02 - final candidate available. The data is available as 13:38:56 ‹Erkki› a "beta" for implementations to test. Only showstoppers are fixed after 13:39:16 ‹Erkki› this point. 13:39:37 ‹Erkki› * 2010, Mar 10 - target release date 13:39:44 ‹Mike› Thanks for the decode 13:40:11 ‹Marc› this clearly implies 1.9 13:41:47 ‹Mike› I don't think I can usefully contribute to this debate - so I think that I will leave now - and see at least Erkki in Brussels soon 13:42:26 ‹Erkki› See you in Brussels, hopefully Mar, too. 13:42:28 ‹Marc› See you 13:42:32 ‹Marc› anything else on the EOR? 13:42:50 ‹Mike› Bye 13:42:57 ‹Marc› bye 13:42:57 ‹Erkki› Haven't found anything else. 13:43:08 * Mike quit 13:43:11 ‹Erkki› Bye! 13:43:18 ‹Marc› Thanks again then for pointing out the problems. A corrected version is online 13:43:41 ‹Marc› I'll then proceed with the preparation of the final version for the enquiry 13:43:54 ‹Marc› Any other business, anybody? 13:44:21 ‹Erkki› Fine, bye for now (till September 7th, if not earlier). 13:44:55 ‹Marc› thanks for your participation then --- and till then!