Chatlog 20060721 - CDFG Wiki

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[9:58] kuester: Hello Håvard!

[9:58] kuester: Any comments on the agenda?

[9:58] Havard: Hi, not a huge crowd yet ...

[9:59] Havard: Agenda is fine with me

[10:01] kuester: Thanks --- and yes, not very many participants online yet

[10:01] kuester: I've tried yesterday and today to reach Wolf, but got only his answering machine

[10:03] Havard: I am not sure how to interpret other messages from Sweden; have we sorted out exactly who is in?

[10:03] kuester: No, not to my knowledge

[10:03] kuester: Verva seems to be unwilling to continue

[10:04] Havard: We also got something from SIS; I shall look into it.

[10:04] kuester: OK

[10:04] kuester: I actually think we should go through the agenda even if we should remain only the two of us

[10:05] Havard: ok

[10:05] kuester: but let's still wait for 5 minutes to see if Erkki and Yves join

[10:05] Havard: ok; I shall get myself a cup of coffee ...

[10:05] kuester: fine

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[10:09] kuester: Hello Erkki!

[10:10] erkki: Hello Marc and Håvard! Now that the SIS TK has also joined Unicode as a Liaison Member (primarily for CLDR), I should expect them to become active also in CDFG.

[10:11] kuester: Great!

[10:11] Havard: I am back; I don't expect that there will be more than the three of us

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[10:12] kuester: Yves might still join, but that shouldn't stop us from beginning

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[10:12] kuester: Yves might still join, but that shouldn't stop us from beginning

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[10:12] kuester: Now the system has joined me twice...

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[10:13] Havard: you only get ONE vote!

[10:13] kuester: probably none, in fact...

[10:13] erkki: Mind you, SIS did not yet participate in the submission for CLDR 1.4 (published this week).

[10:13] kuester: do they intend to become more active for 1.5?

[10:14] erkki: If not, it would not make any sense for them to join!

[10:15] kuester: so, let's go through the agenda. I've just added a 3.6 "CLDR issues" where we can take up these points

[10:16] kuester: For convenience, the minutes and AIs are also up on http://wiki.cdfg.org/Minutes_of_Sophia_Antipolis

[10:16] erkki: I have a couple of comments on them.

[10:16] Havard: No comments have been received

[10:16] kuester: Erkki: you have the floor

[10:17] erkki: Fine.

[10:19] erkki: 1. In 4.12 I made the mistake of stating that the accented i with visible dot would be a glyph variation from a Unicode point of view. Since this is not the case, I'd like the statement to be removed. The submission was already correct in this respect.

[10:20] kuester: ok

[10:21] Havard: Do you want me to just remove the statement, or to indicate a correction of the statement?

[10:23] erkki: 2.Actually, I don't insist on the other request for change that I had in mind, i.e., on Marc's statement on the similarity of the Swedish and Finnish approaches on the KB.

[10:24] erkki: On the first one, just remove the sentence (as idle discussion).

[10:24] Havard: I shall suggest a rewording of 4.12 and send to Erkki for approval.

[10:25] kuester: where I wouldn't have any problems to modify the text

[10:26] kuester: Håvard: sounds good

[10:26] kuester: Any other comments on the minutes?

[10:27] Havard: seems not

[10:27] kuester: Then I propose to go through the AIs to check their status

[10:28] kuester: Action Item 16/01: The Secretary to make sure that a link to www.cdfg.org be established at the CEN/ISSS web site: seems to be open

[10:28] kuester: could we add a date to it?

[10:28] Havard: ok; will do

[10:30] kuester: Action Item 16/02: The Secretary to change references to "Statskontoret" to "Verva". Would that be desirable right now given the SIS involvement?

[10:31] erkki: On 16.10, as the Microsoft evaluation version of the Finnish KB layout became available for Download only at the end of June, it would not have been proper to submit something without even a chance of actual user experience of it.

[10:31] Havard: Statskontoret should definitely go out; we need to check Swedish participation; I will look at that

[10:31] kuester: OK

[10:31] kuester: 16/03 and 16/04 will be under agenda item 5

[10:32] kuester: 16/05 will be 3.4

[10:32] kuester: 16/06: : The Secretary to draw up a list of all CEN documents that are relevant to the CDFG, first as an internal document, later possibly for posting on the CDFG web site.

[10:33] erkki: I've also contacted Microsoft in order to have them formally review the specs for the second phase. They are a direct result of the BOF.

[10:33] kuester: Very good! This is the BOF on keyboards and input methods?

[10:33] erkki: Yes

[10:34] Havard: Should the "keyboard BOF" and the more general "CDFG BOF" somehow be combined?

[10:35] erkki: The Keyboard BOF is already a done deal, i.e. over.

[10:35] Havard: ok; so AI 16/05: go as planned

[10:36] erkki: The CDFG BOF could, however, also touch upon this.

[10:36] kuester: Since we are in it right now, we can just as well discuss the BOF here

[10:36] erkki: OK.

[10:37] kuester: is it known if the 30th Unicode Conference will be again in Europe?

[10:37] kuester: sorry, I've just seen that the 30th will be in Washington, DC

[10:37] erkki: What we essentially concluded is that the European users have been used to add the diacritics using the dead letter method for the last hundred years, ever since the mechanical typewriters.

[10:38] kuester: so I should have asked about the 31st

[10:38] Havard: I haven't seen anything about the 31st Unicode yet

[10:39] erkki: Thus, this could well be the method for most users for most ordinary text (i.e. all text for them).

[10:39] kuester: the dead-key mechanism is probably the most convenient one for Europe's style of diacritics

[10:42] kuester: will a CDFG BOF at the 31st UC be a realistic option?

[10:42] Havard: How much planning and resources are actually needed for a BOF?

[10:43] erkki: However, since this method requires the predefinition of the precomposed sequences, it cannot be used e.g. for the accented Lithuanian letters (and on our kb for some of the Vietnamese letters; incidentally, the Vietnamese keyboard, although it produces precomposed letters, uses only our alternate mode of input, i.e. the base letter followed by the diacritics).

[10:45] erkki: We are, however, proposing to create decomposed letters only in the alternate mode. They will then have to be normalized by the system, which e.g. Microsoft will do for all input.

[10:45] kuester: so the default data input will be decomposed characters?

[10:46] erkki: When the alternate method is used. The primary method, on the other hand, creates only precomposed characters (which I'd expect all to to be in NFC).

[10:47] kuester: OK. Was all this defined in the keyboard BOF?

[10:47] erkki: Thus, the primary (i.e. base) mode is the one that we are now used to.

[10:49] erkki: The BOF is a Birds of a Feather discussion among experts on how something might or should be done. No specs are produced in the session.

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[10:50] Havard: So it shouldn't be too much effort to have a "CDFG BOF" next time in Europe (probably during winter/spring)?

[10:51] kuester: Provoded the 31st UC is in fact in Europe

[10:51] Havard: Ok, so plan still as in AI 16/05.

[10:53] kuester: What (if anything) do we need to do now to make it happen?

[10:54] Havard: First find out timing; I can contact Unicode leadership as a first step.

[10:55] erkki: However, one has to be prepared for the BOF. One also has to convince the organizers in beforehand that a particular BOF session is worthy of holding (like for any other presentation, i.e. a proposal must be made). Once the call for papers will be issued, we must have been ready for some time, since we cannot react quickly. I'd suggest that we prepare for this in the next physical meeting.

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[10:55] kuester: Good. Will you be able to do that within, say, the next two weeks?

[10:55] Havard: ok

[10:56] kuester: Erkki: this sounds very reasonable to me. So we'll add an agenda item to this effect for the Worms meeting

[10:57] kuester: Coming back the minutes: AI 16/07 and 16/08 are both open, I guess?

[10:57] Havard: Yes; 16/06 as well.

[10:58] kuester: So, will we be able to do something about them during the next weeks?

[10:59] Havard: Will try

[10:59] kuester: 16/09 we can discuss under 3.2

[11:01] kuester: 16/10 we have discussed already

[11:01] kuester: 16/11 we will look at under 3.1

[11:01] kuester: 16/12: we are working with the results right now

[11:02] kuester: The other three action items will be dealt with under 3.3 resp. 3.5

[11:03] kuester: Any more comments on agenda item 2?

[11:03] Havard: There is an AI 16/16 as well, which I will do.

[11:04] kuester: thanks!

[11:04] kuester: Then 3.1: the progress we have made is not impressive. In fact, it is non-existent

[11:05] Havard: I still think that we could/should do something.

[11:05] Havard: But I don't have any excellent ideas for progress.

[11:06] kuester: Have you been in contact with Mike Pluke and others over the last months?

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[11:06] Havard: No; need to pick that up now.

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[11:07] kuester: My suggestion on the SoftCultReg and the template is that at least the two of us --- better, if more --- establish a jour fixe until the next physical meeting

[11:08] kuester: Something like a weekly meeting for half an hour to discuss the progress specifically for those two projects

[11:09] Havard: Yes I agree

[11:09] kuester: Erkki: what do you think?

[11:10] erkki: The idea is fine. However, I don't know right now enough of my schedule to commit myself. I'll also be gone for vacation, but...

[11:11] kuester: I'm over the summer rather flexible with dates, so this is only a suggestion: Tuesdays, 9:00-9:30?

[11:12] Havard: Timing: 0930-1000 would be better for me (normally)

[11:13] kuester: fine with me

[11:13] erkki: Looks OK for me right now, except on Aug 15th.

[11:13] Havard: What format? This chat room?

[11:13] erkki: Incidentally, I won't be available any thime that week.

[11:14] kuester: Erkki: that's understood

[11:14] erkki: The chat room is fine, since incidental phone call can always be made.

[11:14] kuester: Agreed

[11:15] Havard: Ok; every Tuesday at 0930 (CET); we will notify eachother if time is inconvenient any particular week

[11:15] kuester: OK. We'll also inform the list and specifically Mike Pluke about that jour fixe

[11:16] Havard: ok

[11:17] kuester: Our tasks for next Tuesday would be to re-read our present text on the SoftCultReg and think about the format of the template for minority languages. I can upload the current proposal of the SoftCultReg on the wiki

[11:17] erkki: Fine.

[11:18] Havard: fine

[11:19] erkki: I'll take it up next week in the CLDRTC meeting that we'll be working on the template, since this could definitely become an overlapping activity as opposed to mutually supportive.

[11:20] kuester: good. we definitely don't want duplication of tasks

[11:24] kuester: if we look at 3.2: I've had a long discussion with Pascal Albrechtskirchinger, Director of the Europabüro of he ZDF (one of Germany's state televison channels)

[11:25] kuester: that talk gave a few background information on Ms. Hieronymi's letter and the need to discuss with the relevant EU officials. I'll try to get an appointment when I'm next in Brussels

[11:27] kuester: The BOF we have already discussed

[11:27] kuester: Erkki: thanks for your work on the Lithuanian characters!

[11:27] kuester: Have the Lithuanians themselves become involved there?

[11:31] erkki: No. They also forwarded the proposal I'd made and indicated their support for it, but that's the end of it. They had another proposal on new diacritis for IPA-like use, which was accepted.

[11:32] kuester: So, we should get into direct contacts with them, as in any case intended also by action item 16/08

[11:34] kuester: let's see if they are then willing to become more consistently involved in the CDFG

[11:34] kuester: Incidentally, any new of Taavi Valdlo?

[11:36] erkki: I've agreed to make a presentation in Tallinn on Oct 12th.

[11:37] kuester: Good. Is this primarily in the context of the CDLR or will it also take on the specifically CEN perspective?

[11:38] erkki: We'll agree on the final content closer to the time frame.

[11:39] kuester: Is this then a sort of follow-up to our December meeting?

[11:40] erkki: In a way, but not precisely. This type of sessions for a larger audience have been held before, and I've made a couple of presentations in my Tieke days.

[11:41] kuester: Will you be able to keep us informed, especially when the final content is agreed?

[11:41] erkki: Incidentally, we have finally settled out of court with Tieke, which relieves me from getting all geared up for the trials this coming fall.

[11:42] erkki: In response, yes, I'll keep you informed.

[11:43] kuester: On Tieke: Good news!

[11:44] kuester: On Estonia and Lithuania: It'd be highly desirable to (at the very least) get regular participation from these countries

[11:45] kuester: On 3.6: Erkki, anything we should discuss still in addition to our discussions at the beginning?

[11:48] erkki: My mind is growing blank.

[11:48] kuester: OK, that leads us to agenda item 4

[11:49] kuester: Is is OK for you if we try to use the CDFG wiki for collaborative document development especially for the template and the SoftCultReg?

[11:49] erkki: ok

[11:50] Havard: I am all for that; for formal reasons we should probably duplicate some documents also on Livelink, since that is the "official" archives.

[11:50] kuester: Yes, once the documents have reached a certain stability

[11:50] kuester: If you should experience problems with the wiki, please let me know ASAP

[11:51] kuester: The flyer and the more colourful website may be less pressing right now, also given that it is almost 12. What do you think?

[11:52] erkki: Agree

[11:52] Havard: Would it possibly be useful to have a short "Wiki Cook Book", to ensure everyone's ability to utilize the tool?

[11:53] erkki: Yes

[11:53] Havard: Marc, could you write a few lines?

[11:55] kuester: I can try. http://wiki.cdfg.org/HelpContents and especially http://wiki.cdfg.org/HelpForBeginners already contains quite a bit of information. Generally, there's the option to "Edit (GUI)" which brings up a Word-style GUI interface for editing the Wiki pages

[11:56] Havard: We should have a special page on www.cdfg.org with direct link to help material and a presentation of what the wiki is for. I can do something on that.

[11:56] kuester: OK

[11:57] kuester: We can also use our experiences when working on the documents to see what information we should specifically document

[11:57] Havard: Most important is of course to get people to actually use the tool!

[11:58] kuester: Yes

[11:59] kuester: Incidentally, the Wien Initiative (also on this wiki) is slowly starting to get working. This contains a large number of organizations representing minority languages (albeit in this case German-based ones). This may be helpful for the template work

[12:01] kuester: On agenda item 6: I'll try to get hotel information and similar up in the next weeks. Would you prefer a single location for all participants?

[12:02] Havard: It has its advantages. I don't have a clue about wheres and whats it that neck of the woods, and clear suggestions would be welcome

[12:02] erkki: That would, of course, make the logistics simpler.

[12:03] kuester: OK, then I'll plan in that direction

[12:03] erkki: Incidentally,

[12:04] erkki: the CDFG meeting coincides with that of SC2/WG2, and I don't know yet, if I should introuce somebody there.

[12:04] kuester: that would be a strong reason to consider an alternative date

[12:05] erkki: We'll start serious discussions in early August on how to hand my responsibilities over and to whom.

[12:06] kuester: Perhaps we should already consider an alternative meeting date then, e. g. October 13th.

[12:06] erkki: with the Ministry of Education, that is, since the initiative may also move out of Kotus.

[12:07] erkki: On Oct 12th I'll be in Tallinn.

[12:07] erkki: Anyway, I don't know anything more on this before August.

[12:08] Havard: I suggest that we stick to our plans re meeting in Worms.

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[12:08] erkki: I agree.

[12:09] kuester1: OK, let's do that for the time being, but check again in August

[12:09] Havard: ok

[12:09] erkki: Fine with me.

[12:10] kuester1: Then that should conclude our agenda. We'll be hearing from each other on Tuesday morning, then.

[12:11] Havard: Fine! Bye!

[12:11] erkki: Bye!

[12:11] kuester: Bye!