Disposition of Comments for TC Enquiry of prEN 13710

Source: Marc Wilhelm Küster (editor)

Date: 2008-11-05

Status: Approved by TC

Approval documented in attachment:cen_t304_meeting_minutes_2008-11-05.pdf

Norway

Vote: Approval with comments

Comments:

N1: Foreword / Introduction

Comment

The introductory part of the document should be brought more in conformance with standards drafting rules, using the clauses “Foreword” and “Introduction” (preferably without sub-clauses).

Some of the text that is currently in the Foreword, could be moved to the normative part of the document. The essence of the third paragraph of “Objectives” (starting with “This European Standard does not want …”) could be moved to (an expanded) clause 5. This is an important point now that this will be a “full EN”, which will be adopted as national standards in European countries. It should almost be “compulsory” in this localization process that each language community ends up with an “XX-EN 13710” (e.g. NS-EN 13710) which gives guidance both for the purpose of producing “neutral pan-European ordering” (= EN 13710) and “localized pan-European ordering” taking the rules of that language community into account at the same time as the total pan-European character set is considered in a consistent, “pan-European” manner.

Resolution

accepted, the editor of EN 13710 collaborates with Håvard Hjulstad to implement

N2: Glyphs in section 6

Comment

Would it be technically possible to include the glyphs (in the “comment part” after % of each line)?

Resolution

not accepted due to potential compatibility problems

N3: Headings for clause 3 and A.1

Comment

The headings of clauses 3 and A.1 should be “Terms and definitions”.

Resolution

accepted

N4: Comments on Annex A

There are some details in clause A.1 (“definitions”) that could be improved (most on a formalistic level):

N4-1

Comment

A.1.1: Change “one of the characters” to “any of the characters”.

Resolution

accepted

N4-2

Comment

A.1.2: The definition formally ends with “language in writing”. The rest should be a note, which should be a full sentence, like: NOTE For the purpose of this European Standard letters are all characters of the Mult…

Resolution

accepted

N4-3

Comment

A.1.8: There should be mention of the (probably more common) term upper case letter, e.g. in a note (between the current two notes).

Resolution

accepted

N4-4

Comment

A.1.9: Correspondingly: lower case letter.

Resolution

accepted

N4-5

Comment

A.1.10: According to the definition, a spacing character is also a special character. Is this intended?

Resolution

yes, it is intended

N4-6

Comment

A.1.11: For many purposes also TAB, line break and page break function as spacing characters (not to mention “end of document”). However, to capture all possibilities would add considerable obscurity to the text!

Resolution

the existing note is going to be expanded and a reference to ISO/IEC 10464:2003 is added

N4-7

Comment

A.4.3.4: References to ГОСТ should probably be changed to GOST.

Resolution

accepted

N4-8

Comment

A.5.3.2: Is it “France” or “the French language in France” that parses diacritics backwards? (There are other languages than French in France. Does e.g. Basque have different rules in France and Spain?)

Resolution

following an agreement with AFNOR, in the past, it shall read "France".

NOTE: Languages like Basque use few diacritics, so the treatment of the sequence of diacritics probably has little practical impact

N4-9

Comment

Annex E, Example 2: The þ shouldn’t be on the first order level (as we have discussed previously; I think it has been fixed in the base document, both in the description and in the delta).

Resolution

accepted

Germany

Vote: Approval with comments

G-1: A.8.2

Comment

Add the following lines to informative annex A.8.2 Second level letters:

after line

U01A4

LATIN CAPITAL LETTER P WITH HOOK

add the following line:

U0280

LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL R

after line

U01B5

LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Z WITH STROKE

add the following two lines:

ȥ	U0225	LATIN SMALL LETTER Z WITH HOOK	z
Ȥ	U0224	LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Z WITH HOOK	Z

Resolution

accepted

G-2: Section 6

Comment

In normative section 6 change the table as follows:

Add line collating-symbol <VRNT6> and a corresponding weight <VRNT6> after the lines with <VRNT5>

Add the line

<U0280> <S0072>;"<BASE><VRNT1>";"<MIN><MIN>";<U01A6> % LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL R

add / modify the following lines:

     <U0225> <S007A>;"<BASE><VRNT2>";"<MIN><MIN>";<U0225> % LATIN SMALL
     LETTER Z WITH STROKE
     <U0224> <S007A>;"<BASE><VRNT2>";"<CAP><MIN>";<U0224> % LATIN CAPITAL
     LETTER Z WITH HOOK
     <U0292> <S007A>;"<BASE><VRNT3>";"<MIN><MIN>";<U0292> % LATIN SMALL
     LETTER EZH
     <U01B7> <S007A>;"<BASE><VRNT3>";"<CAP><MIN>";<U01B7> % LATIN CAPITAL
     LETTER EZH
     <U01EF> <S007A>;"<BASE><VRNT3><CARON>";"<MIN><MIN><MIN>";<U01EF> % LATIN
     SMALL LETTER EZH WITH CARON
     <U01EE> <S007A>;"<BASE><VRNT3><CARON>";"<CAP><MIN><MIN>";<U01EE> % LATIN
     CAPITAL LETTER EZH WITH CARON
     <U01B9> <S007A>;"<BASE><VRNT4>";"<MIN><MIN>";<U01B9> % LATIN SMALL
     LETTER EZH REVERSED
     <U01B8> <S007A>;"<BASE><VRNT4>";"<CAP><MIN>";<U01B8> % LATIN CAPITAL
     LETTER EZH REVERSED
     <U01BA> <S007A>;"<BASE><VRNT5>";"<MIN><MIN>";<U01BA> % LATIN SMALL
     LETTER EZH WITH TAIL
     <U021D> <S007A>;"<BASE><VRNT6>";"<MIN><MIN>";<U021D> % LATIN SMALL LETTER YOGH
     <U021C> <S007A>;"<BASE><VRNT6>";"<CAP><MIN>";<U021D> % LATIN CAPITAL
     LETTER YOGH

Resolution

accepted

G-3: Annex G

Comment

In informative Annex G:

after line <reset>r</reset>  add / modify the following lines:
- ```
<s>ʀ</s> 
                <t>Ʀ</t>
```
after line <t>Ƶ</t> add the following two lines
```
<s>ȥ</s> 
        <t>Ȥ</t>
```

Resolution

accepted

Italy

No comments

Åke Persson (Sweden, personal comments)

Å1: Comments on Annex H

Resolution

EORInLDML:

       <s>ȥ</s><!-- U0225 -->
       <t>Ȥ</t><!-- U0224 -->
      ==>
       <s>ȥ</s><!-- U0225-->
       <t>Ȥ</t><!-- U0224-->

Resolution

accepted

Å2: Comments on section 6

Resolution

EORDeltaTable:

<U0225> % LATIN SMALL LETTER Z WITH STROKE 
==>
<U0225> % LATIN SMALL LETTER Z WITH HOOK

Resolution

accepted

Å3: Questions for discussion (with initial replies)

Comment

>> I've reviewed A.8.1.1 Diacritical marks and A.8.1.2 Multiple diacritical marks. 
     >> The mix of Greek and Latin makes me confused, and the tables does not
     >> reflect the CTT sort order. I propose a change to one Latin
     >> diacritical marks table in sort order and one Greek diacritical marks
     >> table in sort order. If my proposal is not acceptable, then I suggest
     >> that the current tables are changed to reflect the CTT sort order. I
     >> believe that the diacritic shapes would be easier to read if they were
     >> presented in combination with a suitable base letter.
     >>
     > I agree that the diacritics should reflect the CTT sort order (they need
     > to be one sequence, though, as they are in UCS terms the same diacritic
     > across scripts). I'll also look into the presentation with a suitable
     > base letter.

Resolution

accepted.

The diacritics have been reordered to match the CTT sequence in line with the normative section 6.

Comment

>> There are many MES characters (mostly IPA) not included in the EOR 
     >> delta. Is that a deliberate choice?
     >> Examples: U0250, U0251, and U0252.
     >>
     > let's say, it used to be in CR 14400. On the other hand more and more
     > IPA characters have slipped into the delta through casing pairs etc.
     > that I wonder if it is not time to revisit that decision.

Resolution

accepted, the missing characters will be added

NOTE: In response to this comment the following characters were added to the EOR Delta, to table A.8.2 and to the LDML rendering:

A
U0250, related U1D44 (MNN)
U0251, related U1D45 (MNN)
U0252, related U1D9B (MNN)

B
U0299

C
U0255, related U1D9D (MNN)
U0297

D
U0221
U0243


DZ
U02A5, related U01F1


E
U0258
U025A
U025C
U025D
U025E
U029A


F
U025F, related U1DA1 (MNN)

G
U0261, related U1DA2 (MNN)
U0262
U0264
U029B


H
U0265, related U1DA3 (MNN)
U0266, related U02B1 (MNN)
U0267
U029C
U02AE
U02AF


I
U026A, related U1DA6 (MNN)

J
U029D, related U1DA8 (MNN)
U0284

K
U029E

L
U026B, case pair U2C62
U026C
U026D, related U1DA9 (MNN)
U026E
U029F, related U1DAB (MNN)
U0234
U023D

M
U0270, related U1DAD (MNN)
U0274, related U1DB0 (MNN)

N
U0271, related U1DAC (MNN)
U0273, related U1DAF (MNN)
U0235

O
U0277
U0223
U0222

OE
U0276

P
U0278, related U1DB2 (MNN)

Q
U02A0


R
U0279, related U02B4 (MNN)
U027A
U027B, related U02B5 (MNN)
U027D, case pair U2C64 (not part of MES)
U027E
U027F
U0281, related U02B6 (MNN)
U0236

S
U0282, related U1DB3 (MNN)
U0285
U0286

T
U0287
U0236


TC
U02A8 

U
U0244, case pair U0289
U0289, case pair U0244
U0244

V
U0245, case pair U028C
U028C, case pair U0245
U0245

W
U028D

Y
U028E
U028F

Z
U0290, related U1DBC (MNN)
U0291, related U1DBD (MNN)
U0293


Glottal stops: 0294, 0295, 0296, 0298, 02A1, 02A2 (to ignore as symbols in European context)

Comment

>> Almost everyone expect the basic latin alphabet to be A-Z (not A-Þ). 
     >> þ is a letter used only in Icelandic, and there are at least 8 languages with the
     >> rule þ=th.
     >>
     >> Canadian (CAN/CSA Z243.4)
     >> Danish (DS 377)
     >> English (BS 1749)
     >> Finnish (SFS 4600)
     >> French (NF Z44-001)
     >> German (DIN 5007)
     >> Norwegian (NS 4103)
     >> Swedish (Svenska Skrivregler ISBN:47-04974-X)
     >>
     > This can make sense. In CEN/TC304 it was, however, a very early decision
     > to stay with Þ as a separate letter. This is actually justifiable in
     > that Thorn does not visually resemble any other letter except perhaps p
     > (which would be an absurd choice) and somebody not previously aware of
     > the letter would not know that it is a th.

Resolution

not accepted

None: PreEN13710 Disposition Of Comments TCEnquiry (last edited 2009-08-24 07:42:42 by MKuester)