[9:17] Havard joined
[9:18] Havard: I am not here ... Just logged on to get the chat log. Have a good meeting!
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[9:32] Erkki: Hi!
[9:32] Marc: Hello Erkki!
[9:33] Marc: Good news that the wine arrived without problems
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[9:35] Mike Pluke: Sorry I'm late - my PC was veeerryy slow starting today!
[9:35] Elisabeth Blanchon joined
[9:35] Marc: No problem and Hello to all!
[9:35] Marc: My understanding is that last tiem you made it until 7.5?
[9:35] Elisabeth Blanchon: Good morning eveybody.
[9:36] Erkki: Good morning!
[9:36] Mike Pluke: Good morning Elisabeth - Yes - I think we start with 7.5
[9:38] Marc: OK, then let's start --- Mike, would you like to take the lead on this?
[9:39] Elisabeth Blanchon: I may not have the appropriate document : mine is numbered EG 202 421 V<0.0.27> (2006-06) but I could not find the doc you referred to last week, in date of 1st september. Who can help me with this ?
[9:39] Mike Pluke: OK - I think that is best if we do what we did last time. I will announce sections and then people comment or, when they have no more comments say "No comments" or similar.
[9:40] Mike Pluke: So lets start with 7.5.1 and 7.5.2
[9:41] Elisabeth Blanchon: 7.5.1 Under Various situations business, some punctuation might be useful.
[9:42] Mike Pluke: True. I'll look at that and try to improve.
[9:42] Elisabeth Blanchon: In Educational purposes, you probably can delete "when they wish to enhance their language skills", which is somehow redundant.
[9:42] Marc: I don't quite get the meaning of "people in address book (individuals or group of people);" in 7.5.1
[9:45] Mike Pluke: This is the idea that the language that you will use will depend on the language skills of the person you are talkin with - plus the idea that you could store a summary of that alongside their entry in your address book. I agree that this short bullet doesn't convey that. I'll look to see how I can address it - I agree that it is unclear.
[9:46] Marc: OK, that's clearer now.
[9:46] Mike Pluke: It makes sense to someone who already knows the proposed solution - not the best situation!
[9:47] Elisabeth Blanchon: I guess that all this does not apply when you're talking DIRECTLY with someone, since you can negotiate verbally with that person, and that it only applies when you're using some sort of intermediary device. But I wondered, when I read all this part.
[9:48] Erkki: Incidentally, one may also want to do business in a language in which all are at more of an equal level. E.g., I always conduct business with the Nordic participants in English, never in Swedish, unless some participant has severe difficulties in English. This is in order not to give an unfair advantage to anyone.
[9:48] Mike Pluke: You are right. Maybe I should make this cear in one simple sentence. It is particularly relevant for things like e-mail, voice-mail and text messaging.
[9:48] Marc: An illustration of how it's done now for the communcation between humans and services might again be the language preferences in browsers
[9:48] Marc: (the browser example does not apply for the human to human situation)
[9:50] Mike Pluke: Yes Marc. I should make sure that this is added to the how its done now list earlier in the document.
[9:50] Marc: I like the idea of the point system to negotiate language preferences, though I wonder if in the human to human situation the choice will not virtually always be determined in direct communication
[9:51] Marc: and may even change during the actual conversation
[9:54] Mike Pluke: Very true Marc. I think that this is pointed out earlier in the document. Certainly Francoise, my French residing Swedish co-worker says she frequently changes language during a single conversation with other Scandinvians _ in fact I have heard this steady transition between languages. Very strange to a linguistically challenged person like me!
[9:55] Marc: I guess the guidelines would be most appropriate if you need to determine the language e. g. for conversation with some (human) voice services. I could only with difficulty imagine a system telling me in what language I should speak to a colleague
[9:56] Mike Pluke: Yes! I should make it very clear that this is not what we are proposing. Very Big Brother!
[9:58] Marc: Minor point on the emergency situation: "less skilled" --> "more inhibited" (or something like this)
[9:58] Marc: the actual skill level remains unaffected
[10:00] Mike Pluke: But surely one can also lose vocabulary - I know that I have lost much Italian vocabulary that I once gained when I briefly learnt Italian.
[10:00] Mike Pluke: I may not exactly have lost the "skill" but my abilities are compromised by the decayed vocabulary.
[10:00] Marc: that's very true --- but I guess the problem with the emergency situation is nervousness and thus temporary.
[10:01] Erkki: I agree with Marc.
[10:01] Elisabeth Blanchon: An emergency situation definitely affects the ability to express oneself, even in one's own mother tongue, but how to convey the idea ?
[10:01] Marc: (I know this situation myself with Russian which I've completely lost over time)
[10:01] Mike Pluke: I think you are right - I was forgetting the context here. I think I will change it to your wording or similar.
[10:03] Marc: Apart from this I have no more comments on 7.5.1 and 7.5.2
[10:03] Elisabeth Blanchon: I already mentionned it but : In Educational purposes, you probably can delete "when they wish to enhance their language skills", which is somehow redundant.
[10:03] Mike Pluke: Actually "less competent" might be best.
[10:03] Elisabeth Blanchon: Probably
[10:04] Elisabeth Blanchon: 7.5.2 What is UCI? - The reference should be to 8.8, at least in my version of the document.
[10:04] Mike Pluke: True Elisabeth
[10:04] Elisabeth Blanchon: No more comments until 7.6.1
[10:05] Erkki: None.
[10:06] Mike Pluke: OK - any more comments on the rest of 7.5?
[10:07] Marc: Not really a comment, but the slightly sceptic doubt how well the self-assessment according the the CoE principles would really work --- but, then, I know of nothing better than this approach
[10:08] Marc: apart from that, nothing more on 7.5
[10:08] Elisabeth Blanchon: Got the same qualms, especially for having tryed to use it with students.
[10:10] Mike Pluke: I think few people would bother to self assess and do it well. However, I think people might decide to emphasis that they are more skilled in certain aspects of using a language if they encounter unexpected results delivered by "smart" systems. Also, these "smart systems" might suggest that the user upgrades or degrades their default language skill ratings. Providing the infrastructure to support this way of capturing skill offers lots of future possibilities along these lines. Maybe I need to spell this out more - I do when I present this.
[10:11] Mike Pluke: ELisabeth - I would be interested to hear some of the issues that you encountered with its usage.
[10:13] Mike Pluke: My expectation of usage could be that people get a default set of ratings for a languae that they identify as one they speak well, poorly etc. and that these ratings might then get adjusted over time to fine -tune the user experience.
[10:14] Elisabeth Blanchon: Mike, answer to your previous question : In a nutshell, the assessment made tends to be off the point. I mean that most of the time, people tend to under- or over-estimate themselves. That's about it.
[10:15] Mike Pluke: Therefore I guess that Marc's point is correct - this is definitely not a foolproof solution - but I assume we know of nothing better.
[10:16] Elisabeth Blanchon: That indeed is the problem...
[10:16] Mike Pluke: Shall we move on to 7.6.1, .2 and .3?
[10:17] Elisabeth Blanchon: 7.6.1 : 5th bullet : there is a typo in translatied , 6th bullet, delete : before the expected target audience
[10:18] Elisabeth Blanchon: 7.6.3 Guideline: add "to" after "be able"
[10:18] Mike Pluke: OK
[10:18] Erkki: On 7.6.1, e.g. in CLDR there is a recommendation that the currency should also be visible.
[10:19] Erkki: Sorry, ... always
[10:19] Elisabeth Blanchon: Oups, could you understant my previous previous comment, the quotation marks disappeared between my text processor and internet.
[10:20] Mike Pluke: Elisabeth - Yes
[10:20] Mike Pluke: Erkki - Not sure I understood the "Sorry, ... always"
[10:21] Erkki: I typed first: should also be visible instead of should always be visible.
[10:21] Mike Pluke: Ah - understood
[10:22] Elisabeth Blanchon: I forgot one comment on 7.6.1 : In the last paragraph, you can add the standardization community, since, as I already mentioned some time ago, there is a new WG in TC 37 / SC2, dealing with translation and interpretation. Besides, there is that European standard on Quality of translation services, that clarifie a couple of concepts
[10:22] Marc: The language preferences should actually IMHO also be easy to change in a concrete situation without affecting the general settings (e. g. for typing a special SMS)
[10:23] Mike Pluke: Yes Marc - a principle we have in our user profile management work that needs to be emphasised here.
[10:24] Mike Pluke: Elisabeth. Sure I will add these things. I am interested in knowing the current status and activity of the TC37 / SC2 group. Is there any document that gives the current status near-term plans?
[10:25] Mike Pluke: Wow - on my screen I got 5 copies of what I jsut typed - hope you didn't!
[10:26] Elisabeth Blanchon: It's fine ! Only got one. Certainly there must be SC2 resolutions should mention it. I should have them somewhere.
[10:27] Mike Pluke: I would be very grateful if you could copy something to me. As a non-member it is often difficult to access certain documents.
[10:28] Marc: In 7.6.4.3 there might be a point to refer also to Erkki's new paper on keyboards. Mobile dialing pads certainly are not keyboards in a strict sense, but the general considerations about entering letters with diacritics might apply here, too
[10:29] Marc: (even if 7.6.4.3 is largely about searching)
[10:29] Mike Pluke: I would like to - but I can only refer to published documents. I would be happy to refer to it as soon as a published version is available. PS I will send my comments on this paper today - sorry for the delay.
[10:29] Elisabeth Blanchon: Back to 7.6.4.1 Second paragraph - grammatical comment : shouldn't we replace "has" with "had" after "if the system" 7.6.4.2 Add as after such , 3rd line. Maybe add a comma after user profile if I understand correctly the sentence.
[10:30] Erkki: Incidentally, Marc, I plan to send out tomorrow a revised version of the keyboard document. It is intended to go to the full CDFG list.
[10:30] Elisabeth Blanchon: I'll have to leave you now: my usual class in 15 minutes. See you next week.
[10:31] Elisabeth Blanchon: I leave the session open so that I know which point you reach before adjourning.
[10:32] Marc: Should we still see to complete 7.6.4? Then we have a realistic chance to complete the document next time?
[10:33] Erkki: I'm actually going either somewhat back (to 7.5.1) or forward (to 9), but I'd like to see the IETF language tagging and matching RFCs (BCP 47) specifically mentioned here.
[10:34] Erkki: They are under further development.
[10:35] Mike Pluke: Sorry - I have been quiet. I havegot a little lost with a few of the smaller editing comments. I will check these offline.
[10:35] Mike Pluke: Yes Erkki - that makes sense.
[10:36] Mike Pluke: I think it makes most sense to have a reference in both places. The tags are very important. The only problem seems to be to find ways to make better use of them when they are present.
[10:38] Erkki: The ways will evolve one they are present and they'll be present once the capability is there.
[10:38] Mike Pluke: It would be good to try to get to the end of 7.6.4. Unfortunately I will nto be around next Tuesday as I am visitn my daughter in Prague for her birthday.
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[10:39] Marc: Are there any more comments on 7.6.4?
[10:39] Marc: And, Mike, good celebration in Prague!
[10:40] Mike Pluke: There are few nicer places to visit!
[10:40] Erkki: I'll be going to the States next Tuesday and coming back the Tuesday therefter, which means that I won't participate then.
[10:40] Erkki: To me 7.6.4.5 needs a major rewrite.
[10:42] Erkki: The search tools must be aware of the normalization structures and allow for searches either for complete data with incomplete argument or the other way around.
[10:43] Mike Pluke: Is your point that what is said is wrong - or that there is far more to say? I could agree on the latter - but it would probably be unrealistic to expect this document to sya it all.
[10:44] Mike Pluke: In this document we try to focus on those things that are beyond what should be current good practice.
[10:46] Erkki: I consider the tone to be wrong. It would have been right still a few years ago, but the currently dominant encoding schemes and expansion of e.g. the core fonts of Microsoft make it too understanding of sloppy practices.
[10:47] Mike Pluke: I have to admit that this topic is way outside my area of competence. Don't really understand what you have written (although I think I get the gist).
[10:48] Erkki: The recommendation, however, is fine.
[10:49] Mike Pluke: I can't begin to propose an alternative to what is written. What is clear is that what is written has to be clear for a non-specialist audience to understand. Any proposals?
[10:50] Mike Pluke: OK - very glad about that - as ultimately this is the most important aspect. I would hate to be recommending the wrong things - or at least not too often
[10:52] Marc: Does this lead to concluding 7.6.4?
[10:52] Erkki: Mike,I'llI'd propose that
[10:53] Mike Pluke: Thank you Erkki - I would like to be giving the correct message.
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[10:54] Erkki: Sorry. Mike, I could propose a draft for a new text on that in a few minutes, but we could conclude this for now.
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[10:55] Mike Pluke: OK - no problem. Please mail me your suggestion and I will try to use it.
[10:56] Marc: Great. Then we'll reconvene next week to discuss the next steps for the SoftCultReg. The week after that we'll then continue with 7.6.5
[10:56] Mike Pluke: OK - bye.
[10:57] Mike Pluke: And thanks again.
[10:57] Marc: Bye --- and enjoy your trip!