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[10:04] EB: I guess that there are only the two of us. And I'm pretty late, and not able to really attend the meeting.
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[10:05] EB: Are you still here ?
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[10:21] Havard: I am sorry that I didn't start by explaining that I am here mostly "virtually" only. The chat will start at 1030.
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[10:31] anonymous: Hello virtual Havard - there looks like there was some confusion over the new time
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[10:35] Erkki: Hi! Looks like not even Marc will attend.
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[10:36] Marc: Hi! Sorry, here I am...
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[10:37] Erkki: Welcome onboard!
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[10:37] Marc: So, let's start!
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[10:38] anonymous: Hello - something strange happened - the system turned me anonymous then wouldn't let me in
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[10:38] Erkki: Where are we on the ETSI report?
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[10:39] Marc: Hello Christian!
[10:40] cgalinski: Hi Colleagues!
[10:40] Erkki: Hi!
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[10:40] Marc: On the ETSI report we should be at 7.6.5
[10:41] Marc: Is Mike here?
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[10:43] anonymous4: Help
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[10:43] Marc: there seem to be serious issues with the chat today...
[10:44] Erkki: Indeed, I suspect that we cannot really get far with it.
[10:44] Marc: Could we use Skype?
[10:44] Erkki: Not me!
[10:45] Marc: ok, then we'll have to try our luck with the chat
[10:45] Marc: let's take the other topics first in the hope that Mike will be able to join soon
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[10:46] Marc: Erkki: Do you have any feedback on the keyboard report, yet?
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[10:47] anonymous: Hi. I've been having terrible troubles - the system keeps turning me anonuymous and throwing me out.
[10:48] Erkki: I had extensive discussions in Washington with Michael Kaplan from Microsoft.
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[10:48] anonymous: I'm anonymous again - if it works I'll stay like that
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[10:49] Mike Pluke: Can you see my text?
[10:49] Marc: yes
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[10:50] Marc: if it comes to it, I can copy you on Skype chat
[10:50] Marc: and vice versa
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[10:50] Marc: Erkki: what did Michael Kaplan say?
[10:50] Erkki: He still seems to think that it would be easier to switch between different language versions of the keyboard layout. In his mind, the biggest problem would be with the punctuation marks that are in different positions in the different keyboards.
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[10:52] Erkki: He also argued that we'd be making the Greeks second class citicens of the EU.
[10:52] Marc: with what reasoning?
[10:52] cgalinski: ...and the Bulgarians in a few months
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[10:53] Erkki: In my mind, it is easier to switch say between a Latin and a Greek keyboard that between two Latin keyboards with different layouts, because one would better concentrate on the changes.
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[10:54] Marc: would he propose a common layout on top of Latin / Greek / Cyrillic ones?
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[10:56] Mike Pluke: Is there any potential middle way between <ichael's viewpoint and those in your document?
[10:56] cgalinski: there had been a product already about 15 years ago, where every key represented multiple letters/glyphs (incl. letter + diacritic etc.). Every key had a display, which changed according to the languaeg chosen. The product did not succeed on the market.
[10:56] Erkki: He also had problems in understanding that the population register would have only the romanized versions as primary data (with possibly the Greek and Cyrillic versions as supplementary data), since e.g. no ordinary French civil servant could be required to be able to read either Greek or Cyrillic scripts.
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[10:57] Mike Pluke: There is also a Russian design house propoing something similar - with OLED displays in the keys - but I doubt that they have the ability to take it to market
[10:58] Marc: which would target the layout quite squarely into administrations
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[10:58] Erkki: We had hours of discussion, but Michael hasn't respomded yet to the draft that he received. In fact, I believe that he is getting closer to what 's in the draft.
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[11:00] Erkki: I've seen pictures and description of the OLED keyboard and I don't think that it would solve the problem any better. It could be used, though, to switch between the Latinn, Greek and Cyrillic lyouts, but it wouldn't be very helpful for the various Latin versions.
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[11:01] Marc: proably not, since a major issue is learning the keyboard layout
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[11:01] Erkki: In any case, Michael thinks that the Swedish keyboard is horrendous.
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[11:02] Mike Pluke: I'm sure your right.
[11:02] Mike Pluke: that should be you're !
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[11:02] Erkki: I'll poke Michael to-day for his response.
[11:02] Marc: ok --- please let us know
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[11:03] Marc: also his coming to Stockholm might be interesting
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[11:03] Mike Pluke: The system seems to have cloned me!
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[11:04] cgalinski: what about starting off with the mobile phone "keyboard" approach and design a sort of "international keyboard layout". Of course this is not easy, because in real life one needs also superscript/subscript, italic/bold..., underline/double underline..., etc. (not to mention special character use in science and technology - such as you can find in units and measures...).
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[11:06] Marc: any more comments on this?
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[11:08] Erkki: I should add a statement on the puncuation being different in the different countries.
[11:08] Mike Pluke: My last message seems to have disappeared. My question was what "international" mobile phone keybaord. There are different versions for different regions.
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[11:11] cgalinski: I ment the approach, where every key represents multiple glyphs based on one base letter (covering upper/lower case, all letter + diacritic combinations...)
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[11:11] Erkki: I honestly don't believe that thedre can be any pan-European keyboard layout, since the familiar starting oint is so different in the different countries. E.g., Fin/Swe must have , , and , Spain must have , etc.
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[11:13] Erkki: The characters seem to get lost, Fin/Swe must have a and o with diaeresis and a with ring above, Spain must have n with tilde, etc.
[11:13] Marc: agreed
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[11:13] Marc: anything more on this?
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[11:14] cgalinski: I think that recommendation 7.6.4c is good
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[11:15] Erkki: I'll wait for Michael's comments and update the document thereafter with the addition of the use of the punctuation marks.
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[11:15] Mike Pluke1: Yes but the same diacritic is assigned to different mobile phone key for different groups of countries
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[11:15] Mike Pluke: Erkki gave me some revised text for this last time
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[11:16] Mike Pluke: Are we, by default, on to the ETSI document now?
[11:16] Marc: ok, then to 7.6.5
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[11:16] Marc: Mike: I guess so
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[11:17] Marc: Incidentally, I'll look into better a chat solution that doesn't kick us out
[11:17] Marc: and preserves diacritics
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[11:18] Mike Pluke: We have very limited time and, unfortunately I will be travelling next Tuesday. Can I suggest that we look at 7.6.5 to 7.8 in one request for comments. If people have some small comments on these later then please let me know.
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[11:18] Marc: sounds good
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[11:18] Mike Pluke: Please say if you have no comments on the rest of 7.
[11:19] Erkki: Incidentally, on 7.6.5, the three-letter abbreviated names for time zones are not necessarily unique, e.g. EST is used both in the States and Australia.
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[11:19] Mike Pluke: That is a very interesting point that I was unaware of. Maybe I can slip a warning into this section of the document to warn others.
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[11:20] Marc: a small editorial remark: at the end of 7.6.5.1 there's still an "EU Directive XXX"
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[11:23] Mike Pluke: Thanks - I'll check whether ETSI editorial people spotted and corrected this - but I suspect that they haven't!
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[11:24] Marc: incidentally, the taboo "for some Muslem women to be treated by male paramedics or doctors" would be a good type of information also for the SoftCultReg
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[11:26] Marc: any more comments on section 7?
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[11:27] Marc: ok, then to 8
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[11:27] Mike Pluke: True
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[11:29] cgalinski: sorry I was thrown out an have to type my comment again:
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[11:29] Marc: ok
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[11:29] Mike Pluke: I suggest that we don't linger too long on 8. I am keen to get viewpoints on 9 and 10 - as these are the final messages of the work. If this is our last session (as suggested by the agenda) then it would be best to look at 10, then 9 and then 8 if we have time. Can I suggest we look at 10 next.
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[11:30] Mike Pluke: But any comments already in draft on 8 will still be go.
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[11:31] cgalinski: 7.6.9.5 text-to-speech (and in future also speech-to-text) conversion will become more and more important at the user i/f. In traffic telematics the info from central/regional info management systems will be transmitted to the car-driver system, where the car conveys the message to the driver in written or spoken, or graphic or other kind of info representation.
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[11:31] Mike Pluke: that should have been "good" not "go" - I'll blame the system not my typing!
[11:31] cgalinski: I am sorry, I was thrown out and hat to re-type...
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[11:33] Mike Pluke: This is true - much information in telecomms systems is also sent as coded messages that are then output as localized speech or text. I think you have hit on an important issue that we failed to mention. I will look to see where this approach can be inserted in the document - it only works properly for pre-agreed messages.
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[11:34] Marc: I fear that with the current state of this text chat we are hard put to complete our discussion meaningfully...
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[11:35] Erkki: I agree with you, Marc.
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[11:35] Erkki: Incidentally, I'll be in Tallinn next Tuesday.
[11:36] Marc: I suggest that we agree on a replacement date, e. g. Thursday afternoon, since Mike and Erkki are away next Tuesday
[11:36] Marc: duration: 45 Minutes. I'll by then try to suggest something more reliable
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[11:37] Marc: Erkki: give my greetings to Taavi --- and suggest to him that he join the CDFG officially
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[11:37] Mike Pluke: I can do Thursday - that would be great.
[11:37] Erkki: Thursday afternoon this week is quite impossible, next week probably impossible.
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[11:38] Marc: what dates would work?
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[11:38] Mike Pluke: I assumed that you meant next Thursday
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[11:40] Mike Pluke: I CAN'T do Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday next week. Other days OK. Might be able to manage late Wednesday - not certain when I return from Geneva.
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[11:41] Erkki: I could do Thursday morning next week, don't know yet Thursday or Friday afternoon, one of them is impossible.
[11:41] Erkki: Marc,
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[11:42] Erkki: Yes, I'll give your greetings to Taavi. I'll also meet with Indrek Hein.
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[11:43] Marc: OK, how about next Friday morning, 9:00? That's early, but I have a meeting at 10:00
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[11:44] Marc: then, again, with "normal" agenda regularly on the 12th of December
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[11:44] Erkki: When you say next Friday, do you mean Dec 8?
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[11:44] Mike Pluke: Friday morning is OK for me - although even earlier for me!!!
[11:44] Erkki: The normal agenda suits me.
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[11:45] Marc: yes, the 8th --- earlier is no problem for me
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[11:46] Erkki: I'll be there on Dec 8th.
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[11:46] Erkki: See you then!
[11:46] Erkki: Bye!
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[11:47] Mike Pluke: Bye
[11:47] Marc: Mike: Sorry, now understand the "earlier"...
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[11:47] Marc: ok, then see you on the 8th, 9:00 Brussels time and regularly again on the 12th. No meeting next Tuesday
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[11:48] Marc: Bye!
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