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Marc: Hello and Happy New Year to all of you!
Havard: Hi, and happy New Year to Marc (since Mike and I have already chated once ...)!
Mike Pluke: Happy New Year to you Marc
Marc: Thanks!
Marc: I saw the brief chat log of a week ago --- unfortunately, it was too late for me to join from Barcelona
Havard: Erkki might be joining later today, I understand. Aroung 10.
Marc: OK --- he's still on the road, I understand. I expect that his keyboard document will be the key input for today
Marc: Judging from his mail, his input was well received by Microsoft
Marc: Any news from Christian on his character coding issues (cf. http://wiki.cdfg.org/Jour_Fixe_20061219)?
Havard: There is another small item that we might address: Christian Galinski and I talked briefly about possible item for TC37 standardization on multilinguality.
Havard: And as to his char-set: I don't have anything more.
Marc: Sounds interesting --- what is that item about?
Havard: Multilinguality aspects relating to design for all.
Marc: What type of standard is planned?
Havard: I don't think the whole thing is very well thought through yet; he would like input to an idea more than anything else, I think. We could think about it.
Marc: Is there a preliminary document that we could discuss e. g. at our next meeting to perhaps contribute to the clarification?
Havard: I shall prompt Christian to submit something to the CDFG.
Marc: Great. Incidentally, I did not know that TC37 is directly involved in design for all issues
Havard: No, but in multilinguality issues. And "design for all" is a "some-money-for-me-too" issue these days.
Marc:
Mike Pluke: Any ideas what Design for All aspects he was referring to? I tried to pull deaf sign languages as an integral part of the multilinguality issue in the ETSI document.
Havard: I am not certain that he has anything concrete in mind. DfA aspects is very much a "buzz word" these days. But there should definitely be something standardizable around principles relating to multilinguality.
Marc: So, let's see. I guess many of the WAI guidelines 1.0 are becoming a matter-of-course these days whereas WAI 2.0 seems to be a battlefield still (and will perhaps stay so)
Havard: I shall see if we get a document out of Christian (or thoughts out of him and a document out of me), to be discussed as soon as it is available.
Marc: OK
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Marc: On the template for minority languages as well as the soft cult reg we probably need Erkki's input
Havard: Anyway, nothing has happened since last time. We should probably see this chat as a "reminder" for all of us to work on these items.
Marc: Yes
Marc: Maybe an aside: I did not yet contact Dr. Held on ADNOM since there was considerable doubt about its continuation. Now that this is clear we should ideally present her with two or three possible dates for the next plenary
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Mike Pluke: While we are waiting for Erkki, I can tell you that I was able to get all (I hope) of the changes to the ETSI document accepted and that it is now in the publication process.
Havard: OK; we need to coordinate that with Gerhard.
Marc: Mike: Great!
Marc: Any idea when the document will be out?
Havard: (My last comment was to Marc; I guess you figured.)
Marc: Havard: When should we do that coordination?
Havard: I shall try to get hold of Gerhard; then we should have a chat or a telephone conference.
Mike Pluke: I can't thank you all enough for the input you all provided (especially including currently absent friends Erkki and Elizabeth). In arguing for the importance of including the changes in a tight publication schedule, I was able to say many good things about CDFG as being an invaluable source of expertise.
Havard: Excellent, Mike!
Marc: Many thanks for the flowers
Marc: That is, of course, in turn very helpful for us
Marc: Havard: Thanks!
Mike Pluke: Not quite sure of the publication date - should be quite soon. I'll elt you all know.
Marc: Havard: I guess that the XML Clearinghouse will be cleared by the end of this month or so. Having that decision ready will help immensely in shaping ADNOM's future
Marc: Mike: Thanks!
Marc: On the other hand, we should seek to have the ADNOM meeting ASAP after that decision to influence concrete developments
Mike Pluke: Can you say more about the XML Clearinghouse - I am not familiar (know about XML of course)
Havard: Yes, but AFTER. So we need to know when the decision is going to be made.
Marc: The XML Clearinghouse is a quite massive project (or, more exactly, framework contract) by IDABC (in itself the Commission's eGov project) that was out for tender in Summer last year. It should join together relevant semantic assets across Europe and formulate mappings --- not to forget all the software related to that
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Mike Pluke: Certainly sounds massive - but really valuable!
Marc: ADNOM would fit in there nicely IMHO, and whichever consortium wins the bid should be made aware of that ASAP --- but, of course, only after the bid has been awarded
Marc: I guess planning ADNOM for something in early March would probably be a safe bet for that
Marc: Incidentally, may I greet an anonymous Erkki?
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Erkki: Hi, and a happy new year to you all!
Marc: Thanks! Happy New Year also to you!
Havard: And from me
Mike Pluke: And me to
Erkki: Mike, excellent that you got the changes in already!
Havard: Shall we discuss the Keyboard Revolution and its Ruler?
Mike Pluke: I think so - it would have been sad to publish a document with known errors
Mike Pluke: My comment was a reply related to the ETSI document - of course we should talk keyboards
Marc: Mike: Once the report is published, we should with your consensus also publish a news item on the CDFG site relating to that and linking to the report
Marc: Erkki: Keyboards it is --- your floor
Mike Pluke: Marc - I am sure that would be good
Erkki: OK. Kieran owns the keyboard products at MS in Redmond, so her note is extremely important.
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Erkki: The other person I mentioned in the note is Michael Kaplan who is their KB wizard among other items.
Marc: So, it seems they are really going for it
Erkki: I believe that I should now ask Kieran, whether she would like any particular changes to be implemented in the document, although I suspect, not.finf
Erkki: Thus, I think you should send a note to the CDFG list and specifically ask for comments. Who else should receive the document for comments?
Havard: All this, I guess, means that MS plans to facilitate technical support for the system. But isn't "marketing" of the principle in national implementations and standards now a key issue?
Mike Pluke: In your document you correctly put the UK as an exception (as we agreed). It would be good if Microsoft was to introduce a UK solution that corresponds with the approach that you recommend - as opposed to the complex and apparently arbitrary solution that now exists
Erkki: Yes, Havard.
Erkki: I'd guess that the decomposed mode of entering would be OK for the UK. In addition, all the diacritics still need a place on the keyboard, even if they are not used as dead keys.
Marc: Yes
Mike Pluke: Yes - I thought that the decomposed would be a good comprehensive solution
Marc: Unfortunately, for my part I'll have to leave soon for an appointment at 10:30 --- please feel free to continue this discussion. I have the strong feeling that Erkki's document is going to have a high impact in Europe
Marc: and possibly beyond
Marc: I'll leave my machine on and read up on the discussion
Erkki: The decomposed mode requires that normalization be always done, which is not automatically the case. An API exists, though, for this purpose, and how to automate a call for it needs to be resolved. I've pointed this out to MS, though.
Marc: Bye --- see you in a week!
Havard: Erkki: What should the CDFG do to (1) give input to the process, and (2) promote the keyboard systems?
Erkki: Bye, Marc!
Mike Pluke: Small editorial comment - suggest that put commas before and after "on 13 September 1973" at the end of para 2. Otherwise the document looks excellent.
Mike Pluke: Bye Mark
Havard: Agree that the docs look fine. And I have bought the principle (as an option, possibly not as the only way); but I have problems selling it ...
Mike Pluke: I'd be interested to know what the demand would be like in the UK market. Historically the British have been lazy and arrogant about not spelling words in other languages correctly (we invent so many alternative place names!). I guess that is why support for generating "foreign" letters is so poor. However I sense that in an age of the global marketplace - now might be the time for a good solution for the UK (and US).
Erkki: I know, Hvard, that you have tremendous political problems in selling it due to the Norwegian and Swedish history with the Smi keyboard layots. That route, however, cannot lead to a solution for the general public.
Erkki: Once the UK will (be forced to) start entering the names correctly, the demand for a solution will emerge.
Havard: I see possibly the following "push": (1) MS etc supports alternative keyboard systems with toggle; (2) Each language community has a set of two (or three if you also include the system with no dead keys and no "erkki" keys) kayboards to toggle between; (3) Each user can decide what she/he likes.
Havard: (btw: I think we should call them "erkkeys" )
Mike Pluke: Good name!
Erkki: A particular problem is caused by the fact that a standard product capability is next to impossible to withdraw; I know this in practice from my days in international product management.
Havard: Which means that the new keyboard will have to co-exist with the old one(s).
Erkki: That is the reason why we haven't touched the current keyboard layout, only added to it, because that way the old, more limited one, can be withdrawn.
Erkki: (Nobody is any more making keyboards for Europe without the Euro sign.)
Havard: It isn't only more limited. It is also based on different principles. And the use of the two keyboards is different; therefore the user would need to change his habits (which is even more difficult than changing standards).
Erkki: The principle in the basic mode is the same that is currently implemented. Very few users e.g. in Finland would have the need to ever use the decomposed mode. If they need it, they would have to learn new ways, no matter what.
Havard: But wouldn't there need to be some sort of toggle? The same keys are used as dead keys in one system and "erkkeys" in the other.
Erkki: The toggle would be the same as now for switching between different keyboard drivers, since the two modes would be technically separate drivers, although placement-wise tied to each other.
Erkki: Thus you wouldn't have a toggle by character (and one driver doesn't have any knowledge whatsoever of the different behavious of the same keys using a different driver)..
Mike Pluke: Hello - my typing doesn't seem to appear!
Mike Pluke: Ah now it does
Erkki: You could, though, switch between keyboard drivers even for just one character, if you so desire.
Havard: OK. So there could e.g. be a piece of software on the user's desktop for keyboard switch.
Erkki: It is always there.
Havard: What to do now? Suggest: Erkki writes some lines to the CDFG list, referring to CDFG-N239 (which is his document), asking for feedback from CDFG members, especially those who haven't participated in the discussions. Then we will see if we gat feedback.
Mike Pluke: I've writtne this 3 times - so I will type it in parts. UK/US a good market to trial and demnonstrate the decompostion mode, because ..
Mike Pluke: 99 percent of users have no habits to break
Havard: (you seem to have a "keyboard problem", Mike ... )
Mike Pluke: I and others use Word to generate accented characters and paste them into the other app - highly tiresome and inefficient!
Havard: I agree with the postulate. However, the thing would be to convince people that funny characters are useful.
Mike Pluke: BTW - it was the percent sign that seemed to result in all of my other messages vanishing!
Erkki: The EU is bout to convince a lot of people of their usefulnessa, at least the civil servants.
Mike Pluke: Even if most UK/US users don't need to input funny characters - a good solution will not get in their way - but it will hugely aid those of us who want to be polite and use them
Mike Pluke: Microsoft could perhaps take a lead here
Havard: I agree completely. The "erkkeyboard" could be the only way they would need. No need to change people from one way to another, just to change INTO something.
Mike Pluke: Exactly!
Erkki: By when should we ask comments to be made?
Mike Pluke: Probably need to leave now. I have to install and test a new router before I host a Skype conference in 3 hours time!
Havard: So we have two issues: (1) Erkki to initiate CDFG discussion (beyond our "inner circle"), for feedback asap. (2) Market test (by whom? MS?) on the UK and/or US market.
Havard: And I shall have to go very soon as well.
Erkki: Thus, what dead line?
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Erkki: If you agree, I'll ask for the comments by the end of the month.
Havard: Deadline would be according to the needs of the project itself. You are the best judge.
Havard: Two weeks should be ok.
Erkki: OK. Bye for now, and thanks.
Havard: Bye for now!
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Mike Pluke: Bye
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