Marc joined
Havard joined
Marc: Good Morning Havard!
Havard: Good morning!
Marc: I hope your trip to Brussels went well last Tuesday
anonymous joined
anonymous morphed into Erkki
Erkki: Good Morning!
Marc: Good Morning!
Havard: I was out a minute. Now I am 100% here.
Marc: Good --- then let's start and try, if we'll be as fast as last time
Marc: Topics include:
Marc: * The Standards as DB document
Marc: * Revision of ENV 13710
Marc: * Progression of the template for minority languages projects
Marc: * keyboards
Marc: though not all of these may need extensive discussion
Havard: Agenda ok; however not a typical 30 minute agenda ...
Marc: Erkki: Should be start backwards with the keyboards?
Marc: Havard: Agreed. If needs be we can cut it off after, say, 10:15
Erkki: OK. Formal comments have been received from SIS. I've sent an initial response followed by some history, Since Gran Wyke has not been involved earlier.
Erkki: I've also received comments from Lithuania. I'll respond to them and copy Hvard.
Erkki: Marc, would you like to also get copies? Hvard has been copied on the SIS responses.
Marc: Yes, that would be nice
Havard: We could make a "summary of comments" document before the Stockholm meeting.
Marc: That is some feedback already. I also saw that DIN now requested access to the CDFG documents, so I expect some comments from that quarter
Marc: Havard: Good idea
Erkki: I guess we can conclude the keyboard for now, unless Hvard wants to comment.
Erkki: I'd go next to 13710.
Havard: From Norway: I have talked about it with Knut and Audun. We agree that as long as it isn't presented as "replacing" the current keyboard, it shouldn't be any problem,
Marc: OK
Marc: Erkki: Before 13710: Do you have new feedback from the Commission on the template for minority languages projects
Erkki: Sorry, not yet. I haven't really pushed for it extensively, but will do now.
Marc: Great
Marc: Then on to ENV 13710. Unfortunately, the wiki page I was supposed to create for arguing its progression is still in its infancy: http://wiki.cdfg.org/Revision_of_ENV13710
Havard: Well, it is substantially more extensive than 20 minutes ago already ...
Marc:
Marc: I hope it will be more substantial still before the day ends
Erkki: I'd add a statement to the effect that it should also be used between the European national ordering rules and the universal ordering rules.
Havard: Are there actually a "universal ordering RULES"?
Erkki: 14651/UCA.
Marc: but it's true that neither 14651 and the UCA are rules in the strict sense of the word, just defaults
Erkki: Which leads me to the question on how Marc has progressed in the submission to the CLDR.
Havard: It is important to stress that there aren't "rules", but a basis for deviation per language.
Marc: And to my confession of my bad conscience... Hopefully this week
Marc: (my conscience is doubly bad because it is not much work and I've done a good part already long ago)
Erkki: They are rules (to be applied to the "rest") in the absence of any more specific ones.
Erkki: So, how to proceed for a formal update?
Havard: We agree, I know. But outsiders need to be reassured that we don't override national rules (which are RULES). -- But important: What is needed to change?
Marc: Erkki: That is my big question also. I'd like guidance from the Forum and CEN Central Secretariat
Marc: The main facts:
Marc: ENV 13710 and CR 14400 need to be consolidated and brought up to date with the most current version of 14651. Additionally, it can be a test case for the Standards as DB idea
Erkki: Marc: As you, I'd take it to the Forum (as the CDFG chair) and to the BT (via the national body), guided by the CEN CC.
Marc: Thanks! That's what I'll do then
Erkki: This formalism is not required, though, to get it into CLDR.
Marc: Agreed
Havard: The Standards as DB aspect: We could argue that it would be very useful indeed if the generic European AND the national rules were found in one common system, as a European AND national standard.
Marc: Sounds good
Marc: Incidentally, my book "Geordnetes Weltbild" in which I've also described in considerable details the genesis of ENV 13710 has hit the shelves on January 25th
Erkki: This type of standards, specifically the 14651, are also freely available from ISO.
Havard: Congratulations, Marc! Already on the bestseller lists?
Marc: I've published some background information via http://www.budabe.de/grammatologie/ and http://www.budabe.de/grammatologie/nachwort/
Erkki: Marc: Congratulations from me, too! I'll have to get a copy of it.
Marc: Havard: Thanks! And, strangely as it may sound: between then and know, that is in little more than 10 days, more than 10% of its print run has been sold already
Erkki: Marc: There will be more runs!
Havard: I take it they printed more than 20 copies ...!
Marc: the print run was 600 copies
Havard: One thing: What would be the relation between the new EOR as database and the CLDR info?
Marc: not different from the relationship between a "normal" ENV / EN and the CLDR
Erkki: Eventually they should be identical in content.
Erkki: ...but not necessarily in structure, although this could be advantageous.
Havard: So, two databases with (partly) identical content, both available on the net? This needs to be coordinated.
Erkki: Marc is supposed to start participating in the CLDR TC meetings, at least after I've withdrawn.
Marc: In some form, yes. The CLDR (with the UCA) and the EOR (with 14651) use different syntactics, though, even if they are mappable
Marc: Erkki: Yes
Havard: ok; we just need to make sure that we aren't duplicating work
Marc: OK, let's retake this discussion next week with a completed paper and see what else we need to put into it
Havard: fine
Marc: The cutoff date for "serious" contributions is around February 19th
Erkki left
Marc: on the Standards as DB: there's http://wiki.cdfg.org/DBStandards (with the contents to be replaced) if a wiki space is needed
Erkki joined
Erkki: Marc: The cutoff for what?
Marc: sorry: for contributions to be discussed at the Forum
Erkki: Marc: That's what I thought, but couldn't be csure.
Havard: ok; I think what we need to do, is just to fine a few good examples of European standards well suited for DB publishing. 13710 is obviously one. A couple more and we should be ok.
Marc: Agreed. should we discuss this update of the paper at the next meeting. Then we can submit both well in time
Erkki: On ordering, I suspect that we have only few up-to-date national standards (which is also the case for keyboard layouts)e
Erkki: Marc; Fine with me.
Marc: there are a few, though most of them "traditional" ones
Marc: OK, then we have gone through our agenda almost by 10:15. Anything else to discuss?
Havard: Just a thought on STD-DB: One aspect would be like keyboards: many national standards that in a way could be "merged" in a European (or international) STD-DB.
Erkki: Eg., the Finnish ordering standard is not necessarily implementable by computers.
Havard: I don't have anything further
Erkki: I don't either!
Marc: OK, then we'll be reading each other next week --- or probably before via email regards our contributions
Marc: Till then!
Havard: Bye for now!
Erkki: Fine, bye for now!
Marc: and thanks for your contributions
Marc: Bye!